WEBVTT - generated by Videoportal Universität Freiburg 1 00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:11.620 Good evening 2 00:00:11.620 --> 00:00:14.620 and welcome to today's lecture. 3 00:00:14.860 --> 00:00:17.740 The lecture today will be held in English. 4 00:00:17.740 --> 00:00:20.340 But in the discussion session afterwards, 5 00:00:20.340 --> 00:00:23.780 you can ask questions either in English or in German. 6 00:00:25.220 --> 00:00:28.420 And as the lecture is in English today I asked myself 7 00:00:28.420 --> 00:00:34.820 when I prepared this introduction, how can I translate this series title? 8 00:00:34.820 --> 00:00:37.700 “Wissen über den Wald im Wandel” 9 00:00:37.700 --> 00:00:40.700 And my first idea was to say 10 00:00:40.980 --> 00:00:43.980 “Knowledge about the forest in transition” 11 00:00:45.020 --> 00:00:47.900 However, then I wondered whether “Knowledge 12 00:00:47.900 --> 00:00:52.340 about the forest in transformation” is more appropriate, 13 00:00:53.780 --> 00:00:56.580 because to me, the term transition 14 00:00:56.580 --> 00:01:01.000 describes a development or a movement from state A 15 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:06.000 to B, and the direction in this process is quite clear. 16 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:10.000 And everybody knows more or less where to go. 17 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:16.000 And the process is then therefore mainly a process of adaptation, 18 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:20.000 but with transformation. 19 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:23.000 By contrast, I imagine 20 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:26.000 more the profound and far reaching change. 21 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:31.000 So it implies that the future state is not yet clear 22 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:35.000 and the adaptation must take place 23 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:38.000 step by step or within each step, 24 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:41.000 with continuous adaptation along the way. 25 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:46.000 And it is also accompanied by feelings of uncertainty. 26 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:50.000 So this understanding seems to me more accurate 27 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:55.000 in the light of the challenges forests are currently facing. 28 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:58.000 But I would like to leave that open to you. 29 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:02.000 Whether you would translate with transition or transformation. 30 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:07.000 Apart from that general title. 31 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:12.000 Today's lecture will focus on forest-related policies and governance. 32 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:17.000 And those of you who also attended the first two lectures will notice 33 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:21.000 that today's topic offers yet another perspective 34 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:27.000 on how forests can be addressed under the conditions of climate change. 35 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:30.000 And this reflects, 36 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.000 the central idea of the lecture series 37 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.000 to provide insight into the wide range 38 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.000 of approaches and perspectives that exist, 39 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.000 but also that are needed to address 40 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:46.000 the complex challenges we are facing. 41 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:51.000 The lecture series is organised by two projects. 42 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:54.000 One is the Cluster of Excellence Future Forest 43 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:59.000 that just started here at the University of Freiburg in January, 44 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.000 and the project “Wissen über den Wald im Wandel” 45 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:06.000 that I am leading. 46 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:07.000 Our project 47 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:10.000 and also this lecture series is funded 48 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:14.000 or financed by the “Waldstrategie” fund of the Ministry 49 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:19.000 for Nutrition, Rural Affairs and Consumer Protection 50 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:25.000 of Baden-Württemberg, and this “Waldstrategie” fund is also an initiative by the Ministry 51 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:30.000 to face the multiple challenges surrounding our forests today. 52 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:33.000 As you already know, 53 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:38.000 every time we have a moderator. Today, our moderator is Metodi. 54 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:44.000 Sotirov. He's a senior researcher and associate professor here at the chair 55 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.000 of Forest and Environmental Policy at the University of Freiburg. 56 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:51.000 And Metodi, the floor is yours. 57 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:58.000 So thank you so much, professor. 58 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.000 Schlechtriemen. 59 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Thank you so much for this kind introduction. 60 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:07.000 Welcome to today's lecture, 61 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:12.000 which will be given by a very good friend and colleague of ours. 62 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:18.000 Helga Pülzl. Dr. Pülzl from the European Forest Institute. 63 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:19.000 It's my pleasure. 64 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:23.000 I am pleased to welcome you very warmly back to Freiburg, 65 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:27.000 where we usually meet and discuss a lot about European 66 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:30.000 and global forest policy and governance issues. 67 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:34.000 Dr. Pülzl is established 68 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:37.000 scholar experts in global 69 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:40.000 and European forest policy and governance, 70 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:44.000 with more than 25 years of experience. 71 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.000 And I have to admit that I first 72 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:51.000 heard about Dr. Pülzl’s work already when I was working, 73 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:56.000 as a policy officer at the Bulgarian Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, 74 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:00.000 at the Standing Forestry Committee meeting held in Luxembourg and Helga, 75 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:04.000 the Austrian government 76 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:07.000 was just showing to all the other member states a report 77 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:11.000 that you prepared and published and this was like 78 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:15.000 an eye opener for me at least, and for all other member states. 79 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:16.000 You know that 80 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.000 Look, there are more than, I do not know, 81 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:21.000 I can't recall the number, but more than 200 or 300 82 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:25.000 different EU-level policies and instruments 83 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:30.000 that are related to forest management issues. 84 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:33.000 So we better, unpack this black box 85 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:37.000 and understand how they are working and what this all means for all of us. 86 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:41.000 Many of the experts there were really shocked 87 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.000 to receive this news, but it was Helga’s 88 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:50.000 actual achievement to show us this complexity, this variety of instruments 89 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:54.000 and these are still among the main topics that we are still discussing. 90 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:57.000 And it was actually Helga who spearheaded this 91 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:02.000 and opened our eyes for these important issues. 92 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:06.000 So since then, Helga has made an excellent career. 93 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:09.000 Helga was 94 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:13.000 in charge of policy support as a director, 95 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:18.000 and assistant director with the European Forest Institute between 2021 and 2025 96 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:23.000 And now she continues working with the European Forest Institute. 97 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:26.000 She's in charge of policy support 98 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:30.000 whose main aim is to facilitate a dialogue 99 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:34.000 between scientists and policymakers and the broader society 100 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:37.000 in order to provide evidence-based policymaking 101 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:41.000 and to make sure that scientific evidence is being 102 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:46.000 discussed, received and used in policymaking. 103 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:50.000 Helga has also held 104 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:54.000 a senior part-time position with the BOKU University in Vienna 105 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:57.000 as a forest policy scholar 106 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:02.000 and I'm really very much impressed that, Helga is among those 107 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:05.000 very few experts who actually have 108 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:09.000 a background in the mother discipline, political science 109 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:14.000 from the University of Vienna, which is pretty rare, but so valuable. 110 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:19.000 Because, you know, knowing the basic concepts in political science 111 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:22.000 is very important for all those who 112 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:25.000 practice forest policy and governance. 113 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:29.000 I hope I have not forgotten anything important about... 114 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:33.000 We could probably spend two more hours to talk about Helga's 115 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:37.000 achievements in policy and research, and policy support, 116 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:41.000 but probably one thing remains to be said: 117 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:47.000 Helga, you are really the best expert to hear from and to listen to 118 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.000 when it comes to global and European forest policy and governance. 119 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:52.000 Welcome. 120 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:56.000 And I look forward so much to your presentation today. 121 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:58.000 Thank you so much. The floor is yours. 122 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:05.000 Thank you very much, Metodi. 123 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:08.000 I have to say, I'm quite 124 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.000 moved now by this wonderful introduction. 125 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:16.000 And thank you very much for the invitation to give a talk on 126 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:19.000 my favorite topic, European forest governance. 127 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.000 And today I will also present some new insights 128 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:28.000 into European forest governance from a very different perspective. 129 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:34.000 I have, as every scientist does, changed the title a little bit. 130 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:38.000 Originally, I thought I would only talk about the years 1992 131 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:43.000 to 2024, but recent results from 2025 have also been included. 132 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:48.000 So it is quite comprehensive, but not everything is in there 133 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:51.000 because 2026, the European Commission has also 134 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:54.000 made some decisions on forests. 135 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:57.000 So today I will address three questions. 136 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:59.000 What is the problem? 137 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:03.000 How is governance the solution and if governance is the solution? 138 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:04.000 What is the problem? 139 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:08.000 So to start with what the problem is, 140 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:11.000 I would like to quickly address 141 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:14.000 or talk about forests, 142 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:17.000 in the face of a polycrisis 143 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:20.000 or, as we heard in the introduction, 144 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:25.000 maybe the need for 145 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:29.000 transformative changes, or perhaps 146 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:34.000 we are still in a transition phase, something we can discuss later on 147 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:40.000 By polycrisis, I mean the biodiversity crisis. 148 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:44.000 Climate change, of course, but also air pollution, which is rarely talked about, 149 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:49.000 also creates problems for forests. 150 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:54.000 But today, I will not go into this aspect itself. 151 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:58.000 So some of you might have seen this graph. 152 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:02.000 It is work by 153 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.000 scholars in Wageningen and a wider group of scientists, 154 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:10.000 and they have looked into the forest disturbances 155 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:14.000 and how they developed from the 1950s until 2020. 156 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:20.000 And what you can see is that the forest disturbances have tremendously 157 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:21.000 increased. 158 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:25.000 Of course, in the later years, we have all seen the bark beetle crisis. 159 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:30.000 And here, especially in Germany, you have seen it quite considerably. 160 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:33.000 But then, there are also problems with wind. 161 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.000 Whenever wind disturbances happen, they are usually large. 162 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:41.000 That's also why these yellow peaks are quite large. 163 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.000 But then there's also forest 164 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:47.000 fire or wildfire disturbances that also have increased. 165 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:50.000 But pests and diseases have also increased 166 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.000 and they might increase in the future, just to name a few. 167 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:56.000 A recent 168 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:00.000 work from scholars from the Technical University of Munich, 169 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:06.000 and again, a large group of scientists, published in Science in February 170 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:10.000 this year, has shown 171 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:13.000 or predicted that the disturbance rate 172 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:19.000 until the year 2100 will increase quite a lot in European forests. 173 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:25.000 So you can see forest fire is perhaps the most tremendous disturbance, 174 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:29.000 but then bark beetle will continue and wind is harder to predict. 175 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:34.000 But what the scholars also found with their models 176 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.000 is that we will have much less old-growth forest. 177 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:42.000 Again, this is not such good news for biodiversity or certain forms of biodiversity. 178 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:46.000 And, this will also happen in Central Europe 179 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:50.000 or in Germany or my home country, as well. 180 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:56.000 If you look into the reporting of the European Commission, 181 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:00.000 you will find one report about habitats, or 182 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:05.000 the famous monitoring under the Natura 2000 directives. 183 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:10.000 And you will find in this report the status of the habitats is quite bad. 184 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:16.000 So if you look at the yellow colour and the red colour, you can see that 185 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:21.000 they are in poor state or assigned bad status, and not much is in good status. 186 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:27.000 One third of the forest is covered by Natura 2000. 187 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:30.000 We can debate now whether the monitoring 188 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:34.000 of these habitats has been done in a good way or not. 189 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:38.000 A recent publication has actually argued that 190 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:43.000 this monitoring needs to be redone because sometimes good forests look bad. 191 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:47.000 And the way to improve habitats is not encouraged, 192 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:50.000 because imagine you have 80% of your habitat 193 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:55.000 is good in your forest and you increase it by 10% 194 00:12:55.000 --> 00:13:02.000 It's still bad because it's an all good or all bad assessment. 195 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.000 The State of Nature report of the European 196 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:12.000 Commission or European Union actually assessed the same. 197 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:16.000 So, for forest habitats, 90% 198 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.000 of the assessment is in unfavourable conservation status. 199 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:25.000 Again, we can debate whether this is true, how much it needs to be revised. 200 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:28.000 But this is what is published 201 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:30.000 and what the general public sees. 202 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.000 The status of forests does not seem good, even though this is only one 203 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:34.000 third of the forest. 204 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:37.000 Just to reiterate it. 205 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.000 But then let us quickly 206 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:45.000 have a look at what citizens think about forests, those 207 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:49.000 that are not literate in forestry, that have not studied forestry or 208 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:51.000 have an interest. 209 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:56.000 And, I would like to draw your attention to the parts that I have circled. 210 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:02.000 So the ecosystem services that citizens find most important 211 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:06.000 are air-quality regulation provided by forests 212 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:09.000 habitat support, aesthetic value, 213 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:12.000 and then also the benefits to human health. 214 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.000 And you could say, okay, that is interesting. 215 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:17.000 Maybe a more recent result. 216 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:22.000 Actually, this result comes from a very large survey 217 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.000 with 13,000 people that have been 218 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:28.000 asked in, I think, 33 countries. 219 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:33.000 And it's quite consistent with surveys that have been done before. 220 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.000 But if you look at the other aspects 221 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:42.000 that forests deliver firewood, timber or game. 222 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.000 Again, these are less valued by citizens 223 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.000 and might be surprising because we all like our... 224 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.000 We like our windows made from wood. 225 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.000 We even like CLT 226 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:59.000 buildings nowadays or furniture made from wood. 227 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:05.000 So maybe there's a huge problem that we face here. 228 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:09.000 A publication 229 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.000 that looked into how forest owners 230 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.000 make an income, published last year, 231 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:20.000 also yields interesting results, because if you 232 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:25.000 look at the first column, the provisioning forest ecosystem services. 233 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:29.000 So, for instance, wood or firewood 234 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.000 this is where especially the Nordic countries 235 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:37.000 make a lot of income, but not only there; also in Central Europe 236 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:41.000 and in the Mediterranean, forest owners derive income, 237 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.000 and the profitability is, of course, 238 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:45.000 much higher in the Nordics for several reasons. 239 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.000 We have no time to get into 240 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.000 And you can see 241 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:56.000 they also asked whether their income is changing. 242 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.000 Well, if you look at the graph quickly, you could say a little bit, 243 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:05.000 but not so substantial that we could say that most of the income 244 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:08.000 comes from other ecosystem service provisions. 245 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:14.000 So forest owners try to vary their income sources a bit. 246 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.000 A publication 247 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:22.000 from TUM, with economics scholars, looked into how much 248 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.000 does the forest disturbances cost in the future? 249 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:30.000 And I have to say, that's also quite threatening 250 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:34.000 because, the estimated costs under severe 251 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:38.000 climate conditions will double from what we have now. 252 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.000 And someone has to pay for this 253 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:45.000 Restoration activities or also for creating 254 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.000 the forest of the future. 255 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.000 We could go 256 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:54.000 on, but, given that this is a lecture on governance, 257 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:58.000 I would like now to address more this aspect of governance. 258 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:02.020 So how is governance the solution, to all these problems, 259 00:17:02.020 --> 00:17:06.020 as you can see, citizens perceive these problems 260 00:17:06.020 --> 00:17:09.020 and they want policymakers to act. 261 00:17:09.020 --> 00:17:11.020 I have brought 262 00:17:11.020 --> 00:17:16.020 an overview graph on a study that we did 263 00:17:16.020 --> 00:17:20.020 quite recently on global forest governance. 264 00:17:20.020 --> 00:17:26.020 And, what you can see in the graph is that, if I may ask you to look 265 00:17:26.020 --> 00:17:30.020 or to have a look at 266 00:17:30.020 --> 00:17:33.020 the years from 2005, the last 20 years, 267 00:17:33.020 --> 00:17:38.020 the discourse on climate, or we called it climatization 268 00:17:38.020 --> 00:17:41.020 discourse has generally increased in the literature 269 00:17:41.020 --> 00:17:44.020 and has led to much more attention in the literature. 270 00:17:44.020 --> 00:17:48.020 That's not so surprising, because climate change is really a threat 271 00:17:48.020 --> 00:17:52.020 to society and to 272 00:17:52.020 --> 00:17:57.020 not only society, but also to the ecological aspects of our world. 273 00:17:58.020 --> 00:18:02.080 But at the same time, we can see that there are also discourses on growth. 274 00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:05.080 So by economy d growth 275 00:18:06.080 --> 00:18:10.080 plus growth, even, that can be found in the literature. 276 00:18:11.080 --> 00:18:16.080 And what we heard, the transformation is I like this, discussion 277 00:18:16.080 --> 00:18:17.080 when you said transition 278 00:18:17.080 --> 00:18:21.080 is something to some something I agree totally with this idea, 279 00:18:21.080 --> 00:18:25.080 but I think the transformation part with regard to the 280 00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:28.080 global forestry has not been prominent yet. 281 00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:31.080 So it's more a transition from A to B. 282 00:18:31.080 --> 00:18:36.080 But what we can also see is that sustainable 283 00:18:36.080 --> 00:18:41.080 development had its merit, but it became much less important. 284 00:18:41.080 --> 00:18:46.080 And also this technical fix that comes with this ecological modernisation 285 00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:51.080 where you create something technical to solve 286 00:18:51.080 --> 00:18:56.080 the problem has a bit of a peak, but much less than everything else. 287 00:18:57.080 --> 00:18:59.080 So how does this speak a picture of matter. 288 00:18:59.080 --> 00:19:00.040 You will see this in the moment. 289 00:19:01.040 --> 00:19:04.040 But before we address what 290 00:19:04.040 --> 00:19:09.040 the European Union does, we have to ask another question. 291 00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:11.040 Sorry, I brought more questions than answers, 292 00:19:11.040 --> 00:19:13.040 maybe. Who governs the EU? 293 00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:15.040 That's a very difficult question. 294 00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:18.040 If you ask who has the power, it's even more difficult. 295 00:19:19.040 --> 00:19:20.040 But who governs? 296 00:19:20.040 --> 00:19:22.040 You could say, is it not us citizens? 297 00:19:22.040 --> 00:19:26.040 Because we actually elect the parties. 298 00:19:26.040 --> 00:19:30.040 The political parties then determine the ministers, 299 00:19:30.040 --> 00:19:35.040 and the ministers are the ones that then go to Brussels and take decisions 300 00:19:35.040 --> 00:19:38.040 on behalf of us, together with the European Parliament. 301 00:19:40.040 --> 00:19:41.040 But 302 00:19:41.040 --> 00:19:45.040 let us say we can also take another view. 303 00:19:45.040 --> 00:19:49.040 The three institutions, the European Commission, the Council 304 00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:52.040 and the Parliament, they are at the heart of the European Union. 305 00:19:53.040 --> 00:19:55.040 And of course, it's in the chains of the European. 306 00:19:55.040 --> 00:19:58.040 Union to create harmonisation. 307 00:19:59.040 --> 00:20:02.000 I'm afraid this is not the best news for those countries 308 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.000 that want to adhere to their own policies and also want their own traditions. 309 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:12.000 But in the long run, this is what the European Union will do 310 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.000 create harmonised ways to safeguard the internal market 311 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.000 and to create an internal market. 312 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.000 So integration of policies is important. 313 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:27.000 Integration of objectives is important to create one way of doing things. 314 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:30.000 How how successful this is 315 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:31.000 This is so not the story. 316 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:33.000 But while in the European. 317 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:38.000 Union decision-making is done at the EU-level, 318 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:42.000 the implementation is something that needs to be handled by the member states. 319 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.000 And very rarely does the European Union 320 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:50.000 have funding to actually support the implementation. 321 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:55.000 Some of you might have seen the discussion on the budget of the European Union, 322 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.000 and how difficult it is to just generate 323 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.060 a bit more budget, to do more things. 324 00:21:01.060 --> 00:21:06.060 And this actually already shows how difficult it is to have the funding 325 00:21:06.060 --> 00:21:09.060 to support the implementation. 326 00:21:11.060 --> 00:21:12.060 The European Commission 327 00:21:12.060 --> 00:21:15.060 has its different departments. 328 00:21:16.060 --> 00:21:18.060 They are called directorates-general. 329 00:21:18.060 --> 00:21:21.060 So that's one for agriculture, one for environment, 330 00:21:21.060 --> 00:21:24.060 one for trade, one for climate. 331 00:21:25.060 --> 00:21:30.060 You can compare them to ministries that we know at the national level. 332 00:21:30.060 --> 00:21:36.060 So they are the only ones that can prepare policies or legal proposals. 333 00:21:36.060 --> 00:21:38.060 And then the two co-legislators. 334 00:21:38.060 --> 00:21:44.060 So the Council, which consists of the ministers of our 27 member countries 335 00:21:44.060 --> 00:21:49.060 and the European Parliament together take decisions on this legislation. 336 00:21:49.060 --> 00:21:50.060 In the Parliament, 337 00:21:50.060 --> 00:21:54.060 currently, we have 720 directly 338 00:21:54.060 --> 00:21:57.060 elected members from all 27 member countries. 339 00:21:58.060 --> 00:22:01.020 And these members are 340 00:22:02.020 --> 00:22:03.020 I would say 341 00:22:03.020 --> 00:22:06.020 in contrast to the national parliaments. 342 00:22:07.020 --> 00:22:09.020 They don't have to coordinate. 343 00:22:09.020 --> 00:22:12.020 They don't have to adhere to party lines. 344 00:22:13.020 --> 00:22:17.020 They can, but they don't have to in the national context. 345 00:22:17.020 --> 00:22:21.020 When you are, for instance, part of the Conservative Party 346 00:22:21.020 --> 00:22:24.020 and the Conservative Party, is in the government, 347 00:22:25.020 --> 00:22:29.020 then you can really, cross your party line 348 00:22:29.020 --> 00:22:33.020 so you can really take a vote against your party line, 349 00:22:33.020 --> 00:22:36.020 because if you do this, it means that maybe next election, 350 00:22:36.020 --> 00:22:40.020 your name is not on the list anymore in the European Union. 351 00:22:40.020 --> 00:22:41.020 This is different. 352 00:22:41.020 --> 00:22:45.020 And this makes it so complex, the decision-making. 353 00:22:46.020 --> 00:22:49.020 But in the Council, of course 354 00:22:49.020 --> 00:22:53.020 many experts help prepare 355 00:22:54.020 --> 00:22:57.020 the decisions that the ministers then take. 356 00:22:58.020 --> 00:22:59.020 But you 357 00:22:59.020 --> 00:23:03.080 could say, why does the European Union take decisions on forests 358 00:23:03.080 --> 00:23:06.080 after all? they do not have competence, do they? 359 00:23:06.080 --> 00:23:08.080 Well, true 360 00:23:08.080 --> 00:23:12.080 they do not have competence for forestry, but they have a competence 361 00:23:12.080 --> 00:23:18.080 for environment, for trade, for health 362 00:23:18.080 --> 00:23:21.080 to a certain degree and of course, for agriculture. 363 00:23:22.080 --> 00:23:27.080 And around this forest is seen as an environmental 364 00:23:27.080 --> 00:23:31.080 protecting the environment 365 00:23:32.080 --> 00:23:36.080 or generating different ecosystems 366 00:23:36.080 --> 00:23:39.080 from a climate perspective. 367 00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:43.080 But forestry aspects are not covered. 368 00:23:44.080 --> 00:23:47.080 So it also means that the ministers 369 00:23:47.080 --> 00:23:50.080 of forestry do not get together 370 00:23:50.080 --> 00:23:55.080 in the Council, but it is the ministers of trade, the minister of environment, 371 00:23:55.080 --> 00:23:58.080 it's the minister of agriculture who takes these decisions 372 00:23:58.080 --> 00:24:01.040 on forests. 373 00:24:04.040 --> 00:24:05.040 I did a little exercise. 374 00:24:05.040 --> 00:24:09.040 Some time ago, I looked into the legal 375 00:24:09.040 --> 00:24:12.040 website of the European Union. 376 00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:13.040 It's called EUR-Lex. 377 00:24:13.040 --> 00:24:18.040 I would, very much, hope that you do the same, because it's really interesting. 378 00:24:18.040 --> 00:24:21.040 And I looked into how the words forest, 379 00:24:21.040 --> 00:24:24.040 forest and wood and legal acts are addressed. 380 00:24:25.040 --> 00:24:29.040 Please don't take these numbers, seriously now, 381 00:24:29.040 --> 00:24:32.040 because there is no 240, legal 382 00:24:32.040 --> 00:24:35.040 acts or 100, in a specific year. 383 00:24:35.040 --> 00:24:39.040 It's just that there are three versions of legal instruments 384 00:24:39.040 --> 00:24:45.040 and also supporting documents in this EUR-Lex as well. 385 00:24:46.040 --> 00:24:51.040 But what it shows is that there is certainly an increase, 386 00:24:51.040 --> 00:24:57.040 over many years in policy instruments that relate to forests. 387 00:24:58.040 --> 00:25:01.000 So what Metodi said before the landscape has changed 388 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:04.000 quite a lot, and I would like to show you how it changed. 389 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.000 So what we have done is in the past, 390 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:15.000 we always dealt with policy instruments in a one-dimensional way. 391 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:20.000 So we were arguing and this is a critique of much of the scientific work, 392 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.000 so to say, we are arguing that the forest 393 00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.000 strategy talks about management, 394 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:30.000 the forest, the nature restoration law talks about restoration. 395 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.000 So it's one dimension only. 396 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.000 But if you look into this policy instruments that have much more 397 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:40.000 objectives, you know, in order to restore forest to a certain degree, 398 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.000 you also have to manage, to restore nature, for instance. 399 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.000 So what we did is we looked into all policy 400 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.000 instruments at the same time and tried to identify 401 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.000 the objectives in relation to forests, and the goals that they address. 402 00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:59.000 And we have done this since 403 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.060 in 1992 until 2025, and we will continue to do that 404 00:26:03.060 --> 00:26:05.060 And what you get is something like this 405 00:26:05.060 --> 00:26:06.060 This is the landscape. 406 00:26:06.060 --> 00:26:10.060 So these are the forest policy objectives that at this moment, 407 00:26:13.060 --> 00:26:14.060 are still valid. 408 00:26:14.060 --> 00:26:17.060 They would be more if we did this 409 00:26:17.060 --> 00:26:20.060 from a historical perspective, but we didn't see it 410 00:26:20.060 --> 00:26:23.060 so important to also take on board 411 00:26:24.060 --> 00:26:26.060 policy instruments that are no longer valid. 412 00:26:26.060 --> 00:26:29.060 This is the reason why we started with 1992 413 00:26:31.060 --> 00:26:34.060 The fields that have an X 414 00:26:34.060 --> 00:26:37.060 instruments that are legally binding. 415 00:26:38.060 --> 00:26:41.060 But I want to caution, just because an instrument is legally binding, 416 00:26:41.060 --> 00:26:45.060 it doesn't mean it's more important than a non legally binding instrument. 417 00:26:45.060 --> 00:26:50.060 It can the same way also generate change. 418 00:26:53.060 --> 00:26:54.060 And why 419 00:26:54.060 --> 00:26:58.060 2025 is grey is because we have just recently added 420 00:26:58.060 --> 00:27:02.020 it. I will explain the colours in a moment. 421 00:27:04.020 --> 00:27:08.020 Please have a look at 422 00:27:08.020 --> 00:27:14.020 the presentation now in this view, as you can see, in the years 423 00:27:14.020 --> 00:27:18.020 from 1992 to 2017, the ones that are still 424 00:27:19.020 --> 00:27:23.020 active is much less policy objectives. 425 00:27:23.020 --> 00:27:29.020 And there starts to be a tremendous change in the landscape in relation to forest 426 00:27:29.020 --> 00:27:33.020 policymaking in the European Union since the year 2018 427 00:27:37.020 --> 00:27:39.020 von der Leyen I. 428 00:27:39.020 --> 00:27:44.020 So the first commission that the president, von der Leyen has led 429 00:27:44.020 --> 00:27:50.020 ran from 2019 to 2023, 430 00:27:50.020 --> 00:27:54.020 and then the second term started from 2024 431 00:27:54.020 --> 00:27:56.020 And now is the second year that has been completed. 432 00:27:56.020 --> 00:27:58.020 And 2026 is the third, 433 00:27:59.020 --> 00:28:02.080 as you can see in the von der Leyen, one period, 434 00:28:02.080 --> 00:28:06.080 there was quite a development with forest-related instruments, 435 00:28:06.080 --> 00:28:09.080 we knew that there were many instruments being developed, 436 00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:13.080 but what we did not know is that there were so many policy 437 00:28:13.080 --> 00:28:17.080 objectives included in this policy instruments, and much more dimensions 438 00:28:17.080 --> 00:28:20.080 that you need to take into into account. 439 00:28:21.080 --> 00:28:25.080 And frankly speaking, I thought that the policy objectives 440 00:28:25.080 --> 00:28:28.080 that were most important were the environmental ones. 441 00:28:29.080 --> 00:28:31.080 How wrong could I be? 442 00:28:31.080 --> 00:28:35.080 So what you can see there, the ones in green, 443 00:28:35.080 --> 00:28:40.080 there are policy objectives in relation to more forests, 444 00:28:40.080 --> 00:28:45.080 better forest status in response to what I said 445 00:28:45.080 --> 00:28:49.080 before about the status of forests that is presented as bad. 446 00:28:49.080 --> 00:28:52.080 Better forest management as a consequence, 447 00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:56.080 enhancing and preserving biodiversity or ecosystem health. 448 00:28:57.080 --> 00:29:00.040 The surprising part is combating climate change. 449 00:29:00.040 --> 00:29:04.040 Climate change is a forest-related objectives 450 00:29:04.040 --> 00:29:09.040 that has been mainstreamed across policy instruments. 451 00:29:09.040 --> 00:29:10.040 That is really interesting. 452 00:29:10.040 --> 00:29:15.040 And then the ones in reddish colours, they are more about economics, 453 00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:19.040 sustainability, 454 00:29:19.040 --> 00:29:22.040 about economic productivity of forests, 455 00:29:22.040 --> 00:29:25.040 but also about sustainable construction and building and energy. 456 00:29:26.040 --> 00:29:30.040 And then the colours that, turn into more like pinkish, 457 00:29:30.040 --> 00:29:35.040 they're more about sustainability, disaster prevention, global forest. 458 00:29:36.040 --> 00:29:37.040 And then the last one, 459 00:29:37.040 --> 00:29:41.040 the blue ones are more about health and culture in relation to forests. 460 00:29:41.040 --> 00:29:44.040 It's not so surprising then health and culture is not so much 461 00:29:44.040 --> 00:29:48.040 addressed also because, you know, the Commission can always only present 462 00:29:48.040 --> 00:29:53.040 or present proposals for the areas it has competence for 463 00:29:53.040 --> 00:29:57.040 And the competence relates to the treaties of the European Union. 464 00:29:59.040 --> 00:30:01.000 If we look into the 465 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:05.000 who is in charge of these policy instruments, the institutions. 466 00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:09.000 I would also guess to see each environment that would win. 467 00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:14.000 But actually, from the year 2018, 468 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:18.000 there are quite a few more developments ongoing. 469 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:25.000 Many more directorates-general were in charge of forest-related and wood 470 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:29.000 related policies and created policy objectives 471 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:32.000 so that we can see that 472 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:36.000 there is quite a transformation compared to before 473 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:39.000 and maybe most objectives were either 474 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.000 led by DG 475 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.000 environment a bit also by DG agriculture, 476 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:50.000 a bit more than was presented here, but it's no longer valid. 477 00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:53.000 That's why it's not included. 478 00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.000 I'm sorry; this trajectory, 479 00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:03.060 showing these different policy objectives 480 00:31:03.060 --> 00:31:07.060 across these two different themes, 481 00:31:07.060 --> 00:31:11.060 has only been done until 2024. 482 00:31:11.060 --> 00:31:13.060 It's too new. 483 00:31:13.060 --> 00:31:17.060 But what you can see is that two stick out. 484 00:31:17.060 --> 00:31:18.060 One is combating 485 00:31:18.060 --> 00:31:22.060 climate change and the other one is economic productivity of forests. 486 00:31:23.060 --> 00:31:26.060 And when I presented this results the first time 487 00:31:26.060 --> 00:31:30.060 in front of policymakers, they were immediately saying, no, that's wrong because 488 00:31:31.060 --> 00:31:33.060 economic productivity of forests 489 00:31:33.060 --> 00:31:36.060 hasn't really been addressed so much. 490 00:31:37.060 --> 00:31:40.060 I think we have to differentiate between what 491 00:31:40.060 --> 00:31:44.060 you find in the policy instruments and what you find 492 00:31:44.060 --> 00:31:47.060 in the implementation in the countries. 493 00:31:47.060 --> 00:31:50.060 So the, well, in the instrument you find it, 494 00:31:50.060 --> 00:31:54.060 but then how the country takes it seriously is something different. 495 00:31:55.060 --> 00:31:59.060 What I would also like to say in this context is even though we found 496 00:31:59.060 --> 00:32:04.020 a lot of these policy objectives, not all of them are on an equal footing. 497 00:32:04.020 --> 00:32:08.020 Some of them are only addressed in the introduction of the policy instrument, 498 00:32:08.020 --> 00:32:10.020 and they're much less important. 499 00:32:10.020 --> 00:32:11.020 Others are really substantial. 500 00:32:11.020 --> 00:32:13.020 They come with targets. 501 00:32:13.020 --> 00:32:16.020 So we have even started to weigh this policy objectives. 502 00:32:16.020 --> 00:32:19.020 But it's too early to present this here. 503 00:32:19.020 --> 00:32:22.020 Out of curiosity, some of you might like to see 504 00:32:22.020 --> 00:32:25.020 how the legally binding instruments perform. 505 00:32:26.020 --> 00:32:29.020 And, I think what is interesting here 506 00:32:29.020 --> 00:32:33.020 for the legal instruments, what you can see, 507 00:32:33.020 --> 00:32:36.020 I mean, we have differentiated 508 00:32:36.020 --> 00:32:40.020 between the year 1992 and 2018 509 00:32:40.020 --> 00:32:45.020 So the first period before 510 00:32:45.020 --> 00:32:49.020 the von der Leyen presidency started, 511 00:32:50.020 --> 00:32:53.020 but the Green Line shows the total. 512 00:32:53.020 --> 00:32:56.020 So, from the Green Line, 513 00:32:56.020 --> 00:33:00.080 what stands out is more forests and better forest. 514 00:33:01.080 --> 00:33:03.080 Then the second one 515 00:33:03.080 --> 00:33:06.080 is, of course, enhancing and preserving biodiversity. 516 00:33:06.080 --> 00:33:08.080 That's not surprising. 517 00:33:08.080 --> 00:33:10.080 Combating climate change. 518 00:33:10.080 --> 00:33:14.080 But then Economic productivity in forests is there as well. 519 00:33:14.080 --> 00:33:16.080 And the last one is sustainability. 520 00:33:16.080 --> 00:33:19.080 So it's quite interesting which policy related 521 00:33:19.080 --> 00:33:23.080 objectives found their way in this policy instruments. 522 00:33:26.080 --> 00:33:26.080 We have done a 523 00:33:26.080 --> 00:33:30.080 little analysis to see whether they cluster there 524 00:33:30.080 --> 00:33:33.080 And it interestingly also surprising to us 525 00:33:34.080 --> 00:33:36.080 whenever climate-change-related forest-related 526 00:33:36.080 --> 00:33:39.080 objectives were addressed or made, 527 00:33:40.080 --> 00:33:43.080 it always came with the argument of forest profitability. 528 00:33:44.080 --> 00:33:47.080 So you could say, actually, from a negotiation point of view, 529 00:33:47.080 --> 00:33:52.080 negotiators from the Council seem to have been quite successful 530 00:33:52.080 --> 00:33:56.080 and it connects to what you have seen before, 531 00:33:56.080 --> 00:34:01.040 how forests, it need they need to be profitable in some way 532 00:34:01.040 --> 00:34:06.040 because somebody needs to have the money to also pay for and cover forest disturbances 533 00:34:06.040 --> 00:34:09.040 and also the, regeneration of forests 534 00:34:09.040 --> 00:34:12.040 or the change of forests. 535 00:34:13.040 --> 00:34:16.040 But what we could also see in the analysis, 536 00:34:16.040 --> 00:34:20.040 very often circular economy or better forest management 537 00:34:20.040 --> 00:34:25.040 come aligned with this economic profitability objectives. 538 00:34:25.040 --> 00:34:30.040 And it looks like a bit of magic, 539 00:34:31.040 --> 00:34:34.040 where you can have your cake and eat it too. 540 00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:39.040 How this looks then in the implementation part is maybe another story. 541 00:34:43.040 --> 00:34:46.040 Just to sum up. 542 00:34:48.040 --> 00:34:49.040 This is the 543 00:34:49.040 --> 00:34:52.040 first, most comprehensive analysis of the policy instruments 544 00:34:53.040 --> 00:34:56.040 and I think what is interesting 545 00:34:56.040 --> 00:35:00.000 is that there's nearly 600 forest-related policy objectives. 546 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.000 And you could say now this is really enough. 547 00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.000 We should really think about implementation. 548 00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:08.000 But as I said before, in the European Union 549 00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:12.000 the idea is to generate more policy objectives. 550 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.000 So this will not stop there 551 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:18.000 The interesting part is that the last years 552 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:23.000 have been really put the limelight on forests. 553 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:29.000 So it's nearly three times as many as in the 27 years before, 554 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.000 forest-related objectives have been developed. 555 00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:38.000 But combating climate change and at the same time enhancing 556 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:43.000 economic productivity, is maybe the dominant pattern. 557 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:47.000 And this is the most interesting result from my perspective, 558 00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:53.000 because it has this idea that resilience enhances 559 00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:57.000 at the same time, or having more resilient forest enhances at the same time, 560 00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.060 competitiveness and sustainable growth. 561 00:36:00.060 --> 00:36:03.060 How biodiversity comes in is perhaps another story 562 00:36:05.060 --> 00:36:07.060 while climate change 563 00:36:07.060 --> 00:36:11.060 has been mainstreamed or as I said before, there is also policy integration. 564 00:36:11.060 --> 00:36:15.060 There's also this fragmentation between institutions 565 00:36:15.060 --> 00:36:19.060 because every general directorate, whether it's climate, 566 00:36:20.060 --> 00:36:24.060 or whether it's a directorate on environment, has a different style 567 00:36:24.060 --> 00:36:28.060 and also a different emphasis on what forests should be used for 568 00:36:28.060 --> 00:36:32.060 And the more you fragment it, the 569 00:36:32.060 --> 00:36:35.060 more difficult it might be in the implementation 570 00:36:36.060 --> 00:36:39.060 and as I said before, the social and cultural aspects are less addressed, 571 00:36:39.060 --> 00:36:42.060 but maybe this is also something we would find at the national level. 572 00:36:44.060 --> 00:36:47.060 But now let's come back to the original question. 573 00:36:48.060 --> 00:36:51.060 If governance is the solution, what is the problem? 574 00:36:52.060 --> 00:36:54.060 You might wonder, how can there be another problem 575 00:36:54.060 --> 00:36:57.060 if we have already addressed all the problems? 576 00:36:59.060 --> 00:37:04.020 Well, let us think about implementation, or how these policy objectives 577 00:37:04.020 --> 00:37:07.020 actually need to be met in the 27 member states? 578 00:37:08.020 --> 00:37:10.020 Well, it comes with challenges. 579 00:37:10.020 --> 00:37:13.020 The first challenge is about the citizens and the owners, 580 00:37:13.020 --> 00:37:17.020 because citizens, they elect policymakers. 581 00:37:18.020 --> 00:37:22.020 And if citizens think that the most important part 582 00:37:22.020 --> 00:37:25.020 is to protect the forests 583 00:37:25.020 --> 00:37:27.020 and to enhance 584 00:37:27.020 --> 00:37:31.020 health related aspects or protect the forest, 585 00:37:31.020 --> 00:37:35.020 because it helps to mitigate air pollution. 586 00:37:36.020 --> 00:37:37.020 Then different policy 587 00:37:37.020 --> 00:37:41.020 objectives will be addressed, maybe at the European Union level. 588 00:37:41.020 --> 00:37:44.020 Then when citizens think otherwise. 589 00:37:46.020 --> 00:37:50.020 If we have more disturbances to create the interest, 590 00:37:51.020 --> 00:37:56.020 or keep the interest in policymaking on forest will also be more difficult. 591 00:37:56.020 --> 00:37:59.020 Also, from an owner's perspective, 592 00:37:59.020 --> 00:38:02.080 for many institutions perspective, at the European Union level, 593 00:38:02.080 --> 00:38:05.080 if you have already such a complicated policy landscape, 594 00:38:06.080 --> 00:38:12.080 how can you make sure that these policies are coordinated across? 595 00:38:12.080 --> 00:38:14.080 Maybe you can make sure the coordination 596 00:38:14.080 --> 00:38:17.080 a bit at the EU-level, but then the coordination of this 597 00:38:17.080 --> 00:38:21.080 objectives needs to be done also, because in the end there is one forest 598 00:38:21.080 --> 00:38:24.080 where you have to implement it. 599 00:38:26.080 --> 00:38:27.080 And this is 600 00:38:27.080 --> 00:38:31.080 of course something that the member states have to take care of 601 00:38:31.080 --> 00:38:33.080 The policy implementation. 602 00:38:33.080 --> 00:38:37.080 So whatever is decided 603 00:38:37.080 --> 00:38:40.080 by them, together with the European Parliament, 604 00:38:40.080 --> 00:38:43.080 with the support of the Commission, I would say 605 00:38:43.080 --> 00:38:46.080 they had to implement and meet, 606 00:38:46.080 --> 00:38:50.080 but we haven't addressed yet that of course, the forest 607 00:38:50.080 --> 00:38:51.080 in the countries are very different. 608 00:38:51.080 --> 00:38:53.080 Finland and Sweden have much more 609 00:38:53.080 --> 00:38:57.080 For instance, Luxembourg and Malta, have very different 610 00:38:57.080 --> 00:39:01.040 forest from France or the Mediterranean countries, 611 00:39:01.040 --> 00:39:05.040 and also much different 612 00:39:05.040 --> 00:39:10.040 industry on forest, and and very different value added for forest products. 613 00:39:14.040 --> 00:39:16.040 We could say that 614 00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:20.040 we could also look at it a little bit more from a more positive side, 615 00:39:20.040 --> 00:39:25.040 because when we think about the 600 policy objectives, it's 616 00:39:25.040 --> 00:39:31.040 actually a sign of politicians are responsive to what citizens want. 617 00:39:32.040 --> 00:39:34.040 And being responsive means that 618 00:39:34.040 --> 00:39:40.040 we actually progress in society because politicians don't only decide 619 00:39:40.040 --> 00:39:44.040 or make decisions, just for the sake of decision-making. 620 00:39:44.040 --> 00:39:47.040 So this is a sign of progress. 621 00:39:49.040 --> 00:39:51.040 It always comes with a “but.” 622 00:39:51.040 --> 00:39:54.040 the more policy objectives you have, 623 00:39:54.040 --> 00:39:58.040 the more complex it gets, the more difficult it is to, 624 00:39:58.040 --> 00:40:00.000 first of all, understand it. 625 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.000 See the trade offs. 626 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:05.000 Because the trade offs, you know, when you look at it 627 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:09.000 from a European perspective, it looks like you can do everything at once. 628 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:12.000 But the trade offs really show in the implementation 629 00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:16.000 and the more you decide, 630 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.000 the less it might be possible to implement it. 631 00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:26.000 So the second challenge is this gap between rulemaking and implementation. 632 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:31.000 But you also know that countries have fewer financial means available 633 00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:34.000 and the less they have available. 634 00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:38.000 The less they can invest in implementing, policies, 635 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:43.000 the fewer people there are who can take care of the implementation 636 00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:46.000 and then reporting comes up 637 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:49.000 saying implementation is not good. 638 00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:53.000 Status of forest is bad, habitat status is bad. 639 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:58.000 It means that actually the instruments that have been selected, 640 00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:01.060 the objectives that have been selected don't work. 641 00:41:01.060 --> 00:41:03.060 We need much harder instruments. 642 00:41:03.060 --> 00:41:08.060 We need, maybe regulations that are immediately law. 643 00:41:08.060 --> 00:41:11.060 We can actually see this already in the 644 00:41:11.060 --> 00:41:16.060 policymaking of the European Union that, now, more and more, 645 00:41:16.060 --> 00:41:21.060 this type of regulation is being selected, which means that once 646 00:41:21.060 --> 00:41:25.060 the legislation is enforced, it's enforced immediately, 647 00:41:25.060 --> 00:41:29.060 and there is no way to actually respond to national traditions 648 00:41:29.060 --> 00:41:34.060 and national ways of doing things because, you know, it's not an empty vessel 649 00:41:34.060 --> 00:41:37.060 countries already have their own forest policies, 650 00:41:37.060 --> 00:41:39.060 and some of them are really strict on that 651 00:41:41.060 --> 00:41:43.060 So in the literature, 652 00:41:43.060 --> 00:41:46.060 this having more and more objectives 653 00:41:46.060 --> 00:41:50.060 which has consequences is called responsiveness trap. 654 00:41:51.060 --> 00:41:54.060 So The more you are responsive 655 00:41:54.060 --> 00:41:58.060 the more it can create a trap because the implementation is more difficult. 656 00:41:58.060 --> 00:42:03.020 And then implementers may start to select and then NGOs 657 00:42:03.020 --> 00:42:09.020 or scientists or national experts find out that implementation is not good. 658 00:42:09.020 --> 00:42:15.020 And as a consequence, stricter legislation and stricter means 659 00:42:15.020 --> 00:42:18.020 to create the same, a better result 660 00:42:18.020 --> 00:42:21.020 are implemented. 661 00:42:21.020 --> 00:42:23.020 So how to move forward? 662 00:42:23.020 --> 00:42:26.020 I don't want to leave you there 663 00:42:28.020 --> 00:42:28.020 Pathway. 664 00:42:28.020 --> 00:42:32.020 Series, I call this get rid of objectives. 665 00:42:32.020 --> 00:42:34.020 Sounds fantastic, doesn't it? 666 00:42:34.020 --> 00:42:39.020 And I have to say, when I thought about this and I talked about this 667 00:42:39.020 --> 00:42:43.020 and then, like one and a half years ago, I would have said 668 00:42:43.020 --> 00:42:46.020 that is very unlikely, because if you were the minister 669 00:42:47.020 --> 00:42:50.020 that put an objective in place, why would you say this is wrong? 670 00:42:50.020 --> 00:42:52.020 And now we take it back? 671 00:42:52.020 --> 00:42:56.020 Or worse, if your colleague, that is from the same party 672 00:42:56.020 --> 00:43:00.080 has put this in, a place and you have to take it back. 673 00:43:00.080 --> 00:43:03.080 But if it's another minister from the opposing party. 674 00:43:03.080 --> 00:43:03.080 Fantastic. 675 00:43:03.080 --> 00:43:06.080 Because he could always argue not good policymaking. 676 00:43:06.080 --> 00:43:08.080 We now correct it. 677 00:43:08.080 --> 00:43:11.080 But actually we see something interesting. 678 00:43:11.080 --> 00:43:12.080 The European Union, 679 00:43:13.080 --> 00:43:16.080 maybe also with the situation of the parliament, 680 00:43:16.080 --> 00:43:19.080 the European Parliament that got a bit more rightwing 681 00:43:20.080 --> 00:43:24.080 and creating a base for decision-making for the president, 682 00:43:24.080 --> 00:43:29.080 started a process that they call simplification. 683 00:43:30.080 --> 00:43:34.080 So they tried to simplify legislation and ways of doing. 684 00:43:35.080 --> 00:43:38.080 But, you know, it sounds fantastic, but with every simplification, 685 00:43:38.080 --> 00:43:43.080 there is always the risk that, when legislation is opened 686 00:43:43.080 --> 00:43:46.080 up, the parts that actually policymakers liked 687 00:43:46.080 --> 00:43:49.080 will also be dropped. 688 00:43:49.080 --> 00:43:50.080 So that's why I call it 689 00:43:50.080 --> 00:43:53.080 pathway fairer, even though I am open minded. 690 00:43:53.080 --> 00:43:56.080 Maybe, this is the way forward. 691 00:43:56.080 --> 00:44:01.040 Pathway one would be a differentiated form of integration and opting out. 692 00:44:02.040 --> 00:44:06.040 So it means that those countries that have maybe more forest 693 00:44:06.040 --> 00:44:10.040 or diversified forest, they concentrate on certain aspects, 694 00:44:10.040 --> 00:44:13.040 while other countries should maybe have less forest 695 00:44:13.040 --> 00:44:16.040 and not the same product and the same problems. 696 00:44:16.040 --> 00:44:19.040 They opt out on specific parts and concentrate. 697 00:44:19.040 --> 00:44:22.040 And then together you create a European 698 00:44:22.040 --> 00:44:25.040 forest policy implementation landscape. 699 00:44:26.040 --> 00:44:29.040 But It of course also needs negotiation. 700 00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:31.040 It's also highly political. 701 00:44:31.040 --> 00:44:33.040 When can you opt out on something. 702 00:44:35.040 --> 00:44:38.040 The second pathway, which 703 00:44:38.040 --> 00:44:42.040 could be something that brings 704 00:44:42.040 --> 00:44:46.040 decision maker closer to implementers is just vertical integration. 705 00:44:47.040 --> 00:44:51.040 So in other ways you actually integrate the cross governance levels 706 00:44:51.040 --> 00:44:55.040 from the European to the you to the national to the local. 707 00:44:55.040 --> 00:45:00.000 And you actually bring decision makers more closer to each other. 708 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.000 You invite the implementers, of specific, 709 00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:09.000 policies, to be part in the dialogue and to create maybe, 710 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.000 decisions that, more inclusive. 711 00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:18.000 And the third pathway, would be a form 712 00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:22.000 of differentiated policy implementation across member states. 713 00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:26.000 This would mean that, countries would have more leeway and more discretion, 714 00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:31.000 and implementation wouldn't immediately be punished by the court. 715 00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:36.000 If the Commission decides that this implementation of a policy 716 00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:40.000 or a sorry of the law is not well done. 717 00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:46.000 So this differential policy implementation also has some merit. 718 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:49.000 But again, it's of course, also political because, 719 00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:51.000 you need to decide 720 00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:56.000 who can do what, when across the member state to create 721 00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:02.060 one European Union policy forest-related landscape. 722 00:46:02.060 --> 00:46:06.060 And you need European goals, that, 723 00:46:09.060 --> 00:46:10.060 like, link to this, 724 00:46:10.060 --> 00:46:13.060 differentiate implementation style. 725 00:46:15.060 --> 00:46:18.060 So I'm coming to an end. 726 00:46:18.060 --> 00:46:21.060 What's the way forward? 727 00:46:22.060 --> 00:46:25.060 I think from a policy integration perspective. 728 00:46:25.060 --> 00:46:30.060 And this is maybe a bit, let's say influence from the 729 00:46:31.060 --> 00:46:34.060 integration literature. 730 00:46:34.060 --> 00:46:39.060 We should really bring policymakers closer to implementers and coordinate 731 00:46:39.060 --> 00:46:45.060 and really help them to coordinate a bit better, also understand better. 732 00:46:45.060 --> 00:46:49.060 For instance, policymaker 733 00:46:49.060 --> 00:46:53.060 from Norway recently told me, you do decision 734 00:46:53.060 --> 00:46:58.060 making with the forest in mind, that you grew up with 735 00:46:58.060 --> 00:47:02.020 And I thought about it and I thought, actually, in a way, 736 00:47:02.020 --> 00:47:05.020 this is true, because when I look at the Finnish forest, 737 00:47:05.020 --> 00:47:08.020 it looks very different from the forest in Austria. 738 00:47:08.020 --> 00:47:11.020 And if I think about decision 739 00:47:11.020 --> 00:47:14.020 making, I might think more about the forests in Austria. 740 00:47:14.020 --> 00:47:19.020 But then if you go to Croatia, where you see this highly diverse 741 00:47:19.020 --> 00:47:22.020 forest, maybe Croatian 742 00:47:22.020 --> 00:47:25.020 decision makers think very different about forests. 743 00:47:30.020 --> 00:47:30.020 And I think 744 00:47:30.020 --> 00:47:34.020 this real-time perspective of implementers, 745 00:47:34.020 --> 00:47:37.020 while the decision 746 00:47:37.020 --> 00:47:42.020 making process is going on, could be beneficial to 747 00:47:42.020 --> 00:47:46.020 the politicians taking the best 748 00:47:46.020 --> 00:47:49.020 decisions in relation to forest 749 00:47:49.020 --> 00:47:52.020 with regard to policy implementation, 750 00:47:52.020 --> 00:47:57.020 I would like to emphasise, because, we think that it's only the legal 751 00:47:57.020 --> 00:48:02.080 instruments that we have to look out for, because whenever a country 752 00:48:02.080 --> 00:48:06.080 does not implement an instrument, the Commission sends a letter. 753 00:48:07.080 --> 00:48:10.080 And if the country does not agree, does not do anything. 754 00:48:10.080 --> 00:48:11.080 For instance, Austria 755 00:48:11.080 --> 00:48:14.080 had this letter for Natura 2000 and they did not do enough. 756 00:48:14.080 --> 00:48:17.080 So the Commission brought them to the Court of Justice. 757 00:48:18.080 --> 00:48:21.080 Yes. The Court of Justice then can interpret, 758 00:48:21.080 --> 00:48:27.080 the law even stricter and can create additional clarifications, 759 00:48:27.080 --> 00:48:30.080 in maybe more vague decision-making, 760 00:48:30.080 --> 00:48:35.080 a more weak, interpretation before. But 761 00:48:36.080 --> 00:48:38.080 non-legal instrument 762 00:48:38.080 --> 00:48:41.080 can also create change because they allow more leeway. 763 00:48:41.080 --> 00:48:44.080 They are allowed to bring on the 764 00:48:45.080 --> 00:48:48.080 traditions that the countries have. 765 00:48:48.080 --> 00:48:52.080 And, you know, countries are also in good faith. 766 00:48:52.080 --> 00:48:56.080 They do not necessarily always have to have this carrot-and-stick approach. 767 00:48:56.080 --> 00:49:01.040 Like, if you don't do it, the way I want it. 768 00:49:03.040 --> 00:49:04.040 Then this is not good. 769 00:49:04.040 --> 00:49:08.040 And I think, given that the forests are so diverse, 770 00:49:08.040 --> 00:49:12.040 in the European Union, we should not, 771 00:49:12.040 --> 00:49:15.040 abolish this non-legal approach. 772 00:49:16.040 --> 00:49:18.040 But then the third aspect 773 00:49:18.040 --> 00:49:21.040 is the science policy, practice dialogue. 774 00:49:21.040 --> 00:49:25.040 We tried to bring scientists and policymakers together, 775 00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:29.040 but we should not forget the practitioners, 776 00:49:29.040 --> 00:49:34.040 the forest owners, the forest managers, as well as large and small estates 777 00:49:34.040 --> 00:49:40.040 and to create dialogue, because the decision-makers, 778 00:49:40.040 --> 00:49:44.040 as I said before them, might have only their forest in mind 779 00:49:44.040 --> 00:49:47.040 and sometimes, if we can bring them to the forest, even better. 780 00:49:48.040 --> 00:49:49.040 But we should not 781 00:49:49.040 --> 00:49:52.040 forget also to stimulate public debate. 782 00:49:52.040 --> 00:49:55.040 And this is maybe harder, but maybe one 783 00:49:55.040 --> 00:49:59.040 interesting aspect in Austria 784 00:49:59.040 --> 00:50:02.000 why is the perception of forests 785 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:05.000 so much better than in other countries? 786 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:08.000 Because they have a campaign and the campaign is going 787 00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:10.000 on, I think 20 years, maybe even more 788 00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:12.000 It's called Proud of Wood. 789 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:19.000 “Stolz auf Holz” and it has generated quite an impact 790 00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:24.000 because people have a very different perception of forests and forest products. 791 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:28.000 But public debate is costly. 792 00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:32.000 It needs engagement, and it needs also engagement, 793 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:35.000 especially for the younger generation. 794 00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.000 But this engagement can pay off 795 00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:42.000 because it can mean that we tackle problems together. 796 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:47.000 We see different solutions, but we might also increase the legitimacy 797 00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:50.000 for decision-making and acceptance of decision-making. 798 00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.000 And then one last 799 00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:56.000 plea, especially to the social scientists. 800 00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:59.000 But not only is we should really have 801 00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:04.060 more systematic evidence on how policy objectives are implemented. 802 00:51:04.060 --> 00:51:08.060 And, I know that we study a lot. 803 00:51:08.060 --> 00:51:12.060 For instance, Baden-Württemberg is very well studied. 804 00:51:12.060 --> 00:51:16.060 Catalonia, but of course, also some other countries are very well studied. 805 00:51:16.060 --> 00:51:21.060 But we don't do this systematically about all 27 countries. 806 00:51:21.060 --> 00:51:25.060 And actually we should do this more to really see what the evidence is 807 00:51:26.060 --> 00:51:27.060 with this 808 00:51:27.060 --> 00:51:29.060 I would like to thank you for your attention, 809 00:51:29.060 --> 00:51:32.060 and I'm very curious for your question. Thank you so much.